Headline Of The Week Weak
"Holocaust survivors to Mormons: Stop baptisms of dead Jews"
Shame. Shame. Shame! CLICK HERE to read the article accompanying this headline.
[Image via WENN.]
Holocaust survivors to Mormons: Stop baptisms of dead Jews
Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.
Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database that will make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.
But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must "implement a mechanism to undo what you have done."
"Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable," said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.
"We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion," Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. "We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."
Michel said talks with Mormon leaders, held as recently as last week, have ended. He said his group will not sue, and that "the only thing left, therefore, is to turn to the court of public opinion."
In 1995, Mormons and Jews inked an agreement to limit the circumstances that allow for the proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. Ending the practice outright was not part of the agreement and would essentially be asking Mormons to alter their beliefs, church Elder Lance B. Wickman said Monday in an interview with reporters in Salt Lake City.
"We don't think any faith group has the right to ask another to change its doctrines," Wickman said. "If our work for the dead is properly understood … it should not be a source of friction to anyone. It's merely a freewill offering."
Michel's decision to unilaterally end discussion of the issue through a news conference leaves the church uncertain about how to proceed, Wickman said.
Baptism by proxy allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.
Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.
Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.
Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.
"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but … 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.
Wickman said the practice in no way impinges upon a person's "Jewishness, or their ethnicity, or their background."
Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.
Church spokesman Otterson said the church kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 260,000 names from the genealogical index.
But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.
The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.
Wickman said lists of names have been entered into the database by a small number of well-meaning members who were acting "outside of policy." He said that church monitors have identified and removed 42,000 names from the database on their own, and that the church welcomes research from others.
Church officials say a new version of the database, called New Family Search, is being tested overseas and should reduce the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.
"The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation — not available for temple ordinances," the letter states.
The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.
In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.
Poppa Pitt Is Pissed
The jews died for being jewish. Why the hell would they want their ancestors to change that about them. When they died, they didn't have anything except for their religion. Nobody has the right to take that away from them.
Re: M40 – No, people go after the Mormon church because they're absolutely loaded. Any church that requires 10% of their followers' income as a tithing has the money to promote hate. Where do you think all the money promoting the passage of Prop 8?
this disgusts me on so many levels.
first of all the dead should rest in peace. baptizing them is basically doing it against their will.
secondly they need to respect the holocaust victims. they died because they were jews. if they wanted to be christians they could have done converted while they were alive and escape their deaths. but they loved their religion enough to die because of it and that should be respected.
what the mormons are doing is totally offensive and they need to stop being so radical about shit and learn some respect.
This article made me sick. When my mom died, my "family" gave her some grotesque Southern Baptist whacked out funeral. But my mom was NOT a Christian. Repeatedly they kept trying to save the congregation during the service…they should have been talking about my mother and her life. Not about Jesus and him dying for my sins. My mom would have been furious. My grandma lied and said my mom got saved two months before she died. How crazy and sick do you have to be to lie about something like that. The dead should be given the treatment that they wanted and practiced in life. My mom believed in the Great Spirit on the Native Americans…we could have just had a memorial service instead of a farce. Since this incident I have felt like it will be never be right for her wherever she is. People should respect the wishes of the dead &/or their religion in life should be the benchmark on how to proceed. This is a violation of the dead.
Count on the Mormons to force their beliefs on everyone else. No more H8!
No one wants to become Mormons when they're alive, they've resorted to converting the dead?
Unless they specify in they're last wishes that they want to be baptized, back the fuck off.
Re: njpaul0129 – Re: njpaul0129 – Re: njpaul0129 – Re: njpaul0129 – Re: njpaul0129 – Re: njpaul0129 – man fuck you, barack obama is one of the best things that has happened to america
SUCK ON THAT!
You guys are idiots.
Baptism for the dead is just performing a baptism ritual for someone after they've passed away, but it doesn't automatically assume that the recipient of the service has accepted the Mormon church. We believe that the deceased are offered the choice whether or not to accept the baptism. If not, that's okay.
It's not forcing the religion on anyone.
Get a clue. Don't go to hate websites for your information. Talk to a REAL, LOVING Mormon.
Like me.
You guys are so intolerant. You too, Perez. Pot.Kettle.Black.
Okay, I had posted awhile ago about being more tolerant, etc- but this is just getting to be too much. Obviously, as Mormons, Perez does not care about having us as readers. So, I for one, will longer be reading this site. Maybe you other Mormons should consider not reading it either… If I want to read anti-Mormon comments, I don't need to come to a "celebrity gossip" site to read it. Bye Perez…it was fun while it lasted.
Really, this photo should have been filed under "If you are easily offended . . ." I think I just threw up in my mouth! Talk about a bad case of prune-face and odd facial hair!
mormons are plain crazy. i have family who are mormon and i think they are insane. this religion promotes hate not love.
I suppose though if the Mormons are free to baptize whomever they want that the baptize-ees are also equally free to reject it,too.
What is wrong with these Mormons? Leave people alone! Stop trying to push your beliefs and practices on other people!!!! You're doing MUCH more harm than good!
WHY the hell does this matter on a gossip blog? Seriously Perez, the Mormon bashing is only making you look el stupido.
Religion is the root of all evil. It needs ot just go away. All of it.
Um, a couple years ago there was a deal made that the LDS church could do baptisms for the dead of jewish descendants if they had papers showing they were their ancestors. And it's not a big deal, the dead can choose to accept or reject the baptism where they are.
THAT IS FUCKED UP!!!! Who do they think they are?!? No one has the right to change someone's religion after they die. Those mormons are out of their minds. Mormonism is such a cult, it is scary…
As a Jew myself, I find this article disgusting. But I find what the Mormons are doing to dead Jews even more disgusting.
We Jews want to be Jewish without others telling us how wrong we are. We don't go door-to-door asking people if they've heard the Torah. I've never once heard my Rabbi talk about Christians or Jesus during a service…contrary to popular belief we don't sit around and discuss why we disagree with Christians. It just doesn't happen.
Why can't we, ESPECIALLY our dead, be left to our religion? Note to Mormons: Please leave our dead alone. Please leave the Jews alone all together.
Re: Avigayil –
LOL! you are a jew! and your name is avagisil! hahahahaa! jewy jew jew!
Re: 2redheads – Don't let the "e-door" hit ya in the ass on the way out!
Re: Emily86 – Have YOU ever read anything from the Book of Mormon? If you haven't, then you ought to. There's nothing so backwards and outrageous in there, as you think. If you're already Christian, you will not find much evidence in the Book of Mormon to persuade you that Mormons aren't Christian. The book testifies of Christ, just like the Bible did. All those who use the "Thou shalt not add to this book" argument should understand that That PARTICULAR book is all that is being referred to, because, after all, it was written before the other gospels and books were penned down.
Perez: please stop attacking the Mormon church. It's getting disgusting. This whol story is biased to one side: This is not the fault of the church, it is the careless mistakes of a group of people who thought it would be okay to submit the names of people to whom they were not related. Baptisms for the dead are done for the purpose of fulfilling a commandment of God. Besides, if you don't think our Church is right or authentic, why do you care? You obviously shouldn't believe in the power of these baptisms then. It goes to show you that they actually believe that what we're doing WORKS. How now, then?
Re: Lick_my_Icing – touche!!!
Freedom of religion doesn't work. Everyone's beliefs infringe upon the rights of everyone else's. This is sick to me, as someone raised Jewish. I hate the idea that someone could baptize my relatives who were murdered for being Jewish. I hate that someone might baptize me without consent. I can see why a mormon would want to be reunited with a family member in heaven, but it's a very selfish way to try to go about that, and disrespectful. In all, when I'm dead, I won't care what happens to my body, but there's something really off about this practice. If you're a religious person, it seems equivalent to spiritual rape. If you were a holocaust victim, you couldn't be Jewish in life, and now you can't be Jewish in death, either? Reeks of imagined supremacy.
dat is disgusting! u shouldn't baptize some1 w/out there consent
I prefer to work for those that are alive. However well intended, in my opinion they are overstepping their bounds. Baptize Mormons posthumously, and leave the Jewish to the Jewish out of respect.
at least they're equal opportunity haters
eww njpaul is a psycho who probably kidnaps children around his neighborhood. I know about a handful of good mormons, but the rest are crazy.
These people don't understand Baptism for the Dead. It gives the departed soul a choice whether or not to choose the church, it isn't forced at all.
There was a deal made awhile ago saying that mormons could baptize people of jewish descent if they were ancestors of someone, so..yeah. and it's not a big deal anyway. They can choose to accept or reject the baptism where they are. so, who cares.
FINALLY!!!! Someone has brought attention to this f***ed up baptism by proxy shit! I have been aware of this mormon practice for a few years now and frankly it makes me sick to think that a "religion" would go as far as denying a person's right to CHOICE in what they believe in. What is sadder still is that the rest of the world is not outraged enough to put a stop to such a morally abhorrent practice…..
I THINK MORMOMS ARE BRAINWASHED CULT FOLLOWERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Tiny G – MORMONS DO PROMOTE HATE YOU DUMBFUCK. THEY LIKE TO TELL TWO WILLING ADULTS WHO AREN'T RELATED THAT THEY CAN'T GET MARRIED.
is that Zod from superman II?
that is one scary motherfucker
nice combover diesel flapper
abe lincoln beard fucktard
I think the point being is - PLEASE DON'T BAPTISE PEOPLE OF A DIFFERENT FAITH even IF they can deny this in afterlife, it just isnt cool to do it AT ALL. Seriously. If you cant see that and think its ok then ur not accepting someone elses beliefs and its disrespectful. Totally totally wrong to do -ever- OK
Re: Mormon Jess –
You are delusional. It is NEVER OK to impose your religion on someone else when they are dead! You cannot accept or deny ANYTHING when you are dead. Leave them in peace. Worry about your own religion and stop trying to convert others. It is much easier to convert a dead person than a living one that can see how huge of a cult and scam the mormon church is.
Re: Oh Resist Her –
It doesn't matter if the Mormons gave all of the money for prop 8. The fact that African American's and Latinos are not being protested has got to be because either the gay community is afraid or its just not politically correct to do so. There is no other reasoning you can give. To say the Mormons paid for the Yes on 8 campaign is true but their voting numbers are less than 1 % of California. So for you to absolve any responsibility to the ones who actually voted is naive and wrong.
If you went and polled every black church in California.. you'll find that overwhelmingly they oppose same sex marriage. So you better start spreading the protesting around if you're honest.
You vile right-wing scum need to stay the fuck off this website and stick to your filthy redneck hillbilly trailer parks. If you hate OBAMA and GAYS go back to fucking your mother/sister. You filth are nothing but mindless, uneducated, backward scum of the earth. You should have all access to technology confiscated and should be religated to living in caves with no electricity, cars, computers, or any of the other bounties of science. You are filthy backward fat ugly bloated pigs.
As a Jewish person, that pisses me off. I understand that Mormons believe what they believe, but to go around baptizing dead bodies who can't protest– that's like defacing them. Especially people who died because of their religion! If those people believed in their religion strongly enough to DIE for it, then why the fuck would anyone be stupid enough to think that they had any right to BAPTIZE them?! That's just fucking WRONG. Believe what you want– just don't bug me or people in my religion, and fucking with their dead bodies counts as "bugging".
Me's-Loves-Me's-Some-Cartel:
Thanks for voting no on prop 2. But is that what this post is about? NO.
This is about the fact that people of your faith (not you… just people of your faith) are desecrating the bodies of Jewish people who died for their beliefs without their permission (BTW– it's impossible for a dead person to consent to ANYTHING).
Yes, Perez is as liberal as they get. But that doesn't make this story any less true, or any less wrong. I'm Jewish and I can tell you that I most definitely DON'T approve of the desecrating of my people. I don't care what you believe– as long as you don't bother me or my people.
Re: M40 – over 51% of whites voted no on prop 8.
hispanics and asians were basically split 50/50 on it.
over 75% of black voters voted yes on it.
the thing is 75% of black voters are less (in numbers) than 50% of white voters lol
for example, say 75% of black voters mean 20 people, 50% of white voters would mean 35 people…hope that makes sense lol
anyhow, "black churches" really had little to do with it, no predominately black church took a stance on prop 8, for or against. although the decision of voting for prop 8 did have to do with their religious beliefs, their actual religion or church (baptist, protestant, etc) had nothing to do with it, therefore boycotting "black churches" would be incorrectly blaming them for something they didn't do.
besides, you can't blame religious beliefs for political inequality, people are the ones who voted, not their religion. every person in every religion voted differently and according to their own personal belief (that being a combination of political, spiritual, religious and social).
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROP 8!!! idiots
Re: marivelle –
I had a big reply but I deleted it. I just want to say you make some good points.
Re: marivelle – You're one of the few articulate people here. You do make some valid points.
I do know the statistics of what your are saying and they are true. My point was though… that placing blame only on the Mormon Church might be somewhat disingenuous because they are the easiest target to go after.
This is the same story that ran years ago, where were you then? You didn't care.
Just like you don't care that Baptists, Evangelicals, and Catholics all RAN to the Mormons to beg for help funding Prop 8. Looks like they got what they wanted, money for their cause AND an easy scapegoat so that nitwits wouldn't realize that they're the real bigots behind this whole thing.
Opinion and faith are just that, not proven fact, yet we all have those things in our lives in one aspect or another. Why is it only wrong when it isn't the same as yours?
He looks like Satan to me. I'm sure he acts like him too.
I am an ex Mormon and this news disgusts me. Baptisms for the dead by proxy is just one of the many weird-ass beliefs and practices of the Mormon "Church." Don't let them fool you - they are NOT Christians and they are the biggest homophobic, racist, bigoted haters out there!
that's not done
they should rot in hell!
Re: Sensible –
Actually I have, thanks for asking.
MY OPINIONS come from my own experience dealing with the Mormons I've encountered in my life.
I'm also not a Christian as you assumed.
It's called baptizing for the dead. You don't know shit about my religion so don't go around posting stuff that is negative on it. It's not mormons fault that Prop 8 passed. Get OVER IT PEREZ.
Just accept not everyone wants you to get it up the ass mmkay
Re: VITAMINCEE – That's a lie. And America as a country didn't fully accept blacks until Martin Luther King… some still don't. So whether it's true or not it WOULDN'T matte.
Re: Emily86 – You know NOTHING about us so DON'T judge us. That's so disrespectful I would never judge someone because of their RELIGION. It's wrong, everyone can believe what they want to believe. I would die for my faith and it makes me sick when people say terrible things about ANYONE reguardless of their beliefs.
Re: Lisa W a Lil L – HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. That's really funny that you think that because it's NOT true. Where do people come up with this shit?
You all know nothing about us so STOP trashing us. You only hear half the story.
Re: Oh Resist Her – Okay it's called TITHING. And we don't use it to promote hate. We use it to build our temples, churches, seminary buildings, give it to charity. God gives us EVERYTHING, we can give him just 10% back.
WTF?!?!?!? Holy shit, that's probably the most disturbing thing I've ever heard about Mormons! Um, how to put this… KEEP YO' SHIT TO YO'SELVES!!!! I cannot believe that is even true, I find that so horrific. Seriously, where do they get off thinking they have the right to change a dead person's religion?!?!? I can't even really comprehend this, I had NO idea that this was happening… Like, who the hell comes up with this crazy shit, anyway?!?!?!!
Re: AlexaKylee –
Excuse me,
but how exactly do you know that I know nothing about your religion?
This is the internet.
You don't even know who I am, so how are you capable of knowing what I know?
When Mormons baptize the dead in their temples they arent doing it against the will of the dead. What they believe is when the baptize that person that in the after life that person can either choose to accept or deny the baptism. they believe that they still have the choice.
Re: Emily86 – Exactly, it's the internet and not everything on the internet is true. Try visiting lds.org the church's actually website that's one of the only places you can find actual truth about it. I can promise we are just normal people. You're right I don't know you, but regardless of your religion, or if you don't have a religion at all I would still never say anything hurtful about it.
HEY!!!! mormons aren't that bad except they kinda hate blacks like me!
=/ im a mormon
i dont hate blacks :S
i dont hate gay
tbh i have many gay mates
and we dont push our religion on people
we baptise the dead
its up to them to choose if they will accpet it in the next life or not =/
perez i love your site but you chat bull tbh
:) so ye