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Filed under: Barbara Walters > Britney Spears > Lynne Spears > Osama LutfiClick here to watch Barbara Walters' announcement on The View this morning that Britney Spears is seeking psychiatric treatment, plus info on her conversations with Osama Lutfi.
Posted: January 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Re: Jef –
the point of this is that Britney is harming herself and others (her children) and should get treatment. If she gets better good for her. Psychiatric medications do not affect a person's personality or their subconscious, it affects symptoms.
Re: Jef – Yes, we don't have a clue. I suppose you have them all huh? I hope you say the same thing next time youre begging for a shot of penicillin for a throat infection. I suppose you think since there's no indentified cause then we should leave it there then? "Controlled enviroment" Haha,thats the difference between math and living creatures, but i guess you just like playing safe and that which doesn't adjust to your "quantitative models" and "predictions" is a "pseudoscience". Go to med school and quit being another Tom Cruise copycat, meanwhile i'll go try to heal people you know, the ones in the real world where 1 + 1 doesn't always equate 2.
Re: Jef – my "authority"? I'm not the one calling everything i don't agree with a "pseudoscience" sweetie. It might work making you sound interesting or pseudointellectual, but it doesn't make you right.
“You on the other hand apparently use pseudo/proto-science to make a living by ripping off debilitated people using nothing but authority. Authority is not used by people of science and your last sentece definitley excluded you from that group”
I make a living from medicine. I guess you feel debilitated every time you go to the ER then? That’s not my problem either.
So why do I keep reading "scientific" literature stating almost unequivocally that dopamine imbalances cause schizophrenia?
Ummm. Because it is, the same way diabetes is caused by insulin imbalances AND because it HAS BEEN reproduced in laboratories with live and genetic models, since experimenting with humans is unacceptable.
And btw? You won’t suffer from the disorders britney suffers? that’s what she used to say 10 years ago
«it's also so subjective there's a thing called the DSM-IV-R»
You mean the successor to the one that classified homosexuality has a disease (not anymore)? Those criteria are purely conventional as this example shows. They are decided on a vote for crying out loud. Do you think the specific heat of a material is decide on a vote?
«the point of this is that Britney is harming herself and others (her children) and should get treatment.»
To my knowledge she never harmed her children. You must have some information which is not in the public domain.
«Psychiatric medications do not affect a person's personality»
They affect a person's memory, libido and if you go to things like ECT it only gets worse.
«I suppose you have them all huh? »
No I don't. But unlike you I don't make a living pretending I do and masking my ignorance while ripping people of and controlling their lives.
«Go to med school and quit being another Tom Cruise copycat»
I share almost nothing with Cruise's POV. If you couldn't get that by now there's little more I can write.
«meanwhile i'll go try to heal people you know, the ones in the real world where 1 + 1 doesn't always equate 2.»
I couldn't put it better myself. You knowingly deceit them.
«that which doesn't adjust to your "quantitative models" and "predictions" is a "pseudoscience"»
No, only that that doesn't have any of those qualities. Are you even able to grasp that?
«my "authority"? I'm not the one calling everything i don't agree with a "pseudoscience" sweetie.»
Well you have no data so all that is left is your authority as the use of "sweetie" clearly shows.
If anything your comments just showed how ignorant about science you are and that you really have nothing else to back your diagnosis other than authority.
In a just society there shouldn't be any place for the likes of you.
You wrote:
«Oh honey, in MEDICINE there is almost no indentified cause for most disorders.
Actually there are very few "cures" except for some infections and fractures.»
I gave you the dopamine example to show you that what you wrote is inconsistent what what you actually support.
«And btw? You won’t suffer from the disorders britney suffers? »
1) I don't know whether she suffers from anything.
2) What I wrote was that even if I ever develop what you call mental illnesses I won't look you up for treatment because unlike what you wrote *the current state of the art is much cruder than in every other field in medicine*
3) I guess it's too much to ask of you to even try to grasp these points. you are obviously incapable of doing so.
Maybe you have some imbalances. Too little dopamine perhaps.
But I don't have your authority so I can't make that diagnosis over the wire. I bet you could since you don't actually need to measure anything (your own words).
yeah whatever does it for you *wink*
"You mean the successor to the one that classified homosexuality has a disease (not anymore)?"
I've heard that kind of claim only from religious people. Its refreshing to hear it from someone who calls himself a man of science. Since hundreds of years ago doctors performed trepanations to epileptic people then medicine must be archaic? Again, i hope you say the same thing to your doctor next time you visit his office. Your aphorisms don't apply to the real world, you're fine just were you are with your predictable models.
"They are decided on a vote for crying out loud. Do you think the specific heat of a material is decide on a vote?"
I'll use your words: there's little more I can write.
"To my knowledge she never harmed her children. You must have some information which is not in the public domain."
She put one of them on their lap while driving a car, she's drank alcohol and done drugs in front of them, bottom line? they took them away and gave them to a half illiterate backup dancer.
"They affect a person's memory, libido and if you go to things like ECT it only gets worse."
I actually had grown some respect for u since you seemed to have some back up knowledge of what you were talking about, until now. So according to you every medication that has side effects is bad. Propanolol, a medication broadly used for high BP and arrhythmias can cause depression and affect libido. It should be taken off of the market then according to you. Aminoglycosides can cause deafness, we should stop using them for treating infections then? I imagine you're talking about benzodiazepines when you talk about medications that affect memory, i've seen dozens of patients who use them and a small proportion report short term memory issues as a side effect, same thing with propanol, aminoglycosides, etc. Don't know what u mean by ECT, i'm not a native English speaker
«I've heard that kind of claim only from religious people. Its refreshing to hear it from someone who calls himself a man of science. Since hundreds of years ago doctors performed trepanations to epileptic people then medicine must be archaic?»
Classic sophistry (and of bad quality). The problem here is that in the DSMs the criteria to write them hasn't changed, whereas in medicine there has been lots of change in the methods of study. This is the crux.
The change for homosexuality was arbitrary (social pressure) not due to something unknown at the time it was made.
«She put one of them on their lap while driving a car»
She should pay for that by loosing her licence for some time and or custody (a bit extreme in my opinion), not by being drugged against her will (possibly at least since I can't be sure of her will).
«So according to you every medication that has side effects is bad.»
No. Being given medication against one's will is wrong unless that person was incarcerated due to some crime. Got it now?
You can drug yourself as much as you want, just don't force anyone to do it on the basis of some subjective criteria.
«It should be taken off of the market then according to you»
No.
ECT = Electroconvulsive therapy
now back with a vengeance after years of laying low.
I forgot you said something about antidepressants being associated to a higher rate of suicide ideation. They (I’ll say it before you do: some greedy money hungry companies with no objectivity at all) conducted 3 major studies. It is not statistically significative the same way with libido and depression with propanolol to take the medications off the market. The other conclusion is that one of the first symptoms to disappear under antidepressant treatment was adynamia and abulia, that’s what happened when you gave someone who’s having suicidal thoughts a medication that’ll give them the energy to conduct their suicidal plans. And that’s why depression is usually treated with psychotherapy along and not only medication.
“Electroconvulsive therapy now back with a vengeance after years of laying low.”
Back with a vengeance? Did you or an acquaintance had a bad experience with psychiatric medications or ECT? Maybe you should stop watching House. Just the same way with antibiotics, antihypertensive medications etc. if a medication or ECT is causing unpleasant side effects it will be discontinued and that’s the end of it, unless you’re in a concentration camp but that’s out of our reach.
ECT was low for years because there weren’t enough anesthetic agents to prevent the patient from having a generalized seizure and its side affects so it was rarely used during the 80’s-90’s. With new anesthetic agents the person is just as anesthetized as if they were going through an appendicectomy. Side effects? Trouble with short memory which reverses after maybe a week of discontinuation of therapy and post-ictal status associated to anesthetic agents and seizure itself and is over in the post-op period.
I really don’t know what else to say, I just hope you won’t have to suffer from any mental disorder so you won’t have to fight against a treatment you don’t want to receive.
Re: Jef – This whole conversation reminds me of the ritalin report that said kids were dying from heart dysrythmias "caused" by the medication. It was EVERYWHERE on the news, i bet they didn't put it anywhere though that those kids had specific contraindications for ritalin (going back to the "good doctors-bad doctors" point). It is contraindicated in patients with arrythmias like when you give amoxicillin to a patient with renal failure. You fuck up. And i don't wanna incite a "ritaline drugs kids and makes them docile", you surely know how to investigate and look that it is a CNS stimulant, so i'll leave it up to you.
Re: FUCK JAMIE AND LYNN –
that is very true they never really seem to give a damn about their children unless they got the money for them. Very sad story :[
i just wish people would leave her alone who knows? miracles do happen she might recover [i think she is under to much stress]
«Back with a vengeance?»
Yes, after years of almost not being used.
«Did you or an acquaintance had a bad experience with psychiatric medications or ECT?»
No. I think the fact you are not a native speaker might have made you misinterpret my use of "with a vengeance".
«Maybe you should stop watching House.»
I don't on a regular basis. I might have seen a couple of episodes a long time ago.
« Side effects? Trouble with short memory which reverses after maybe a week of discontinuation of therapy and post-ictal status associated to anesthetic agents and seizure itself and is over in the post-op period.»
Not true according to testimonies I've seen. It was not a representative sample though.
«I just hope you won’t have to suffer from any mental disorder so you won’t have to fight against a treatment you don’t want to receive.»
I just hope I'm never diagnosed with one (at least not in the way these are made nowadays) so that I can live my life far away from this kind of shamanism. I would really hate having someone trying to control my life just because they get a kick (and some money) out of it. I'm almost sure no symptom I've read about is worse than the alternative.
"Not true according to testimonies I've seen. It was not a representative sample though"
I won't say NO ONE ever suffers from side effects, that doesn't apply to ANY kind of treatment whatsoever. It's like penicillin, if you're allergic to it (which can be fatal) it doesn't mean someone else who’s not allergic shouldn't use it if they have a treatable infection. Unfortunately the same thing happens with anesthesia or ECT or most medications whatsoever, the only way you know you're allergic or have a tendency to suffer from a side effect is being exposed to it. Again, just bc it wasn't used for a long time it doesn't mean its not effective, it wasn't used not bc it wasn't effective, but bc there weren't enough anesthetic medications to secure the patient's well being.
Re: lu – “I just hope I'm never diagnosed with one (at least not in the way these are made nowadays)”
You mean clinical diagnosis? If you’re concerned that the diagnosis can’t be confirmed with a lab test, then you won’t want to suffer from most rheumathologyc diseases either that are diagnosed solely by clinical criteria, the same way, you know… psychiatrists do?
“Not true according to testimonies I've seen. It was not a representative sample though.”
Well from the sessions I assisted only a patient reported short term memory loss and had to discontinue the sessions before they were over. I don’t think the other patients who reported a 90% reduction of their depressive symptoms would agree. I’m curious about the side effects you’re talking about though.
I've been to many many sessions of ECT under relaxation and they were all performed under general anesthesia, some patients mostly complained about short term memory loss, so the sessions were performed with a longer span between each other, in most cases resulting in reduction of this side effect. in the few patients where it didn't work the sessions were discontinued and they were back to medications. Of course there are wackjobs who try ECT under lets say, “unfit” circumstances, like some nuts who perform breast augmentation surgeries in their office, but that I’ll leave to the respective authorities to investigate :-p
ECT is ONLY reserved for those patients who do not respond to different medications or develop intolerable side effects, or sever types of depression like psychotic patients or where there’s an imminent risk of suicide, so it’s not as common as you’d think if that’s what concerns you.
« If you’re concerned that the diagnosis can’t be confirmed with a lab test, then you won’t want to suffer from most rheumathologyc diseases either that are diagnosed solely by clinical criteria, the same way, you know… psychiatrists do?»
This is not true and you know it almost for sure.
To pinpoint the exact condition (syndrome actually) is pretty much arbitrary clinical work as you write, but you can (and DO) measure many parameters in lab-work and those clearly indicate a problem and I'm talking about many parameters (immunology mainly) that clearly indicate something is wrong.
Now correlating the severity of the symptoms with the lab values is not clear-cut, but again they are measured and from my interaction with doctors in those areas some are quite upfront about the state of their art (and some just outright arrogant) even though they are still ahead of psychiatrists in the tools at their disposal for a diagnostic.
If you really need examples of measured parameters I can look them up but ANA (for example anti-DNA antibodies) come to mind. RF is also measured (and has been for many decades) but it's not very useful. I'm not an expert on this so please correct me if I am wrong.
Of course this is all complicated, but at least they are measured and people with auto-immune disorders such as SLE or RA don't have to take the" your body has an imbalance and pretty much attacks itself without" any evidence pointing to that.
If possible I would like to stay away from those conditions too, but if I ever get one I'll be selective about which treatment to follow though I would seek treatment.
«I’m curious about the side effects you’re talking about though.»
Only memory loss (short and not so short term).
«ECT is ONLY reserved for those patients who do not respond to different medications or develop intolerable side effects, or sever types of depression like psychotic patients or where there’s an imminent risk of suicide, so it’s not as common as you’d think if that’s what concerns you.»
No, thats not what concerns me.
What concerns me is that I can be forced to spend 14 days incarcerated, have my material possessions taken away, my right to vote taken away (where I live even people convicted of murder and rape get to vote) just because someone (usually several people) feels like it (or genuinely thinks it's for my own good), even though I haven't done anything to justify that punishment.
Tell me, do you think this woman has made such serious offenses to justify being taken away and effectively detained for 2 weeks?
If you want you can give me your emal, this stupid site is messing with my system
if you want you can give me your email, this site is seriously messing with my system
I've been without an internet connection for some 2 days.
My feeling exactly, this is a long thread.
I won't leave my real email here because I really don't lilke spam, but if you wish you can reach me at jef_2000@spambob.net (oneshot account) and I'll receive your email and reply using my real email.